Conversation

Discussion forum for all Windows batch related topics.

Moderator: DosItHelp

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berserker
Posts: 95
Joined: 18 Dec 2013 00:51

Re: Conversation

#31 Post by berserker » 29 Dec 2013 20:20

penpen wrote:The next big task: Using Perl, Python, PHP
There are portable versions available; as only 2 links are allowed, i misuse the code-blocks,
but i only link the portable perl version, as i the other portable programs don't look trustworthy (at least in my eyes):

Code: Select all

http://strawberryperl.com/
seems to be trustworthy, because it is linked by: http://www.perl.org/
But these portables have a great disadvantage: They are really huge... the smallest is the strawberryperl:
~ 100 MB (zipped), 315 MB (unzipped)
My user profile at work is limited to 128 MB, so i cannot use them there, even if i would want.
And if i had to solve tasks at work, i even would not download these software at home,

this is a bit strange. If you do have a need to program at work, although I don't know what's your profession. why is that a concern of installing the tools necessary for the job? another scenario, a company may already be running some web servers hosting PHP for example. why not leverage on the tools that are already there? this is just an example.
Like I said, if there is a legitimate business reason for doing some things, then evaluate the cost and benefits of using such tools in terms of maintainabiility + cost of development ( think LOC ) + others and get approval to use them.
But then again, if your environment or boss dictate only batch you can use, then so be it. Does it hurt you in any way that I post other types of solution that doesn't even affect you?





penpen wrote:In addition there are similar tools to do the same: JScript, VBScript, server sided XML/XSLT/JavaScript.
No need to download anything which, i think, most of the users would prefer.

again this is based on assumption and man made rules. Would it be no problem for you if Perl or Python or PHP comes bundled into a Window installation by default? or with an option for you to install? Installation is never a problem. Its the rules people make that is the problem.

penpen wrote:Next point for discussion: portable versions of wget (~450 KB) /sed (~ 77KB)
These sizes are much better, although i doubt i ever would use them for my own:
These programs could easily be programmed with JScript/C#;
i also have access to C++ at work, but i think that is an exception.

sed is stream editor. Its not just a simple string replacement tool and wget is a feature rich web crawler. why reinvent the wheel and waste time to code again? Just download and use and make sure download from trusted source. This is a universal issue to consider when downloading stuff (not just what you think about downloading portable perl)


penpen wrote:Finally my opinion about that all:
On a batch forum, a solutions may not bound on any specific language:
i have no problem in using perl, c++ assembler, or even whitespace,
or even more strange programming languages.

actually, I am only answering the TS, i don't remember I answer you. So there's no problem whether you want to use what tools. I am not interested really :)

penpen wrote:But every programmer should follow this rules (among others) of programming (in computer science terms): Minimal costs - maximum benefits.
So if a solution with pure batch is possible, pure batch should be preferred;
Pure batch == all that is listed here:

Code: Select all

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb490890.aspx
If no pure batch solution seems to be/is possible then just use the next known solution with minimal costs:

nowadays minimal costs can equate to minimal development time. pure batch? to do FTP? do send email?



AiroNG wrote:If the user of this forum doesn't say anything, then the only useful assumption is: He has nothing else but built in functionality.

that's only your assumption

penpen wrote:If a user want to allow for example a C++ solution, he should say: "I have access on a
C++ compiler, too."

this point I agree and it should be in a black and white rule.

penpen wrote:If he has access and doesn't inform us, it is not our task to figure that out.

your TS is the customer. If this forum has no customer, it will be dead. Providing services for customers is common sense. :)



penpen wrote:@berserker: I hope this anwers some of your questions, too: what is pure/native batch, why not first using Perl, and others.

no it doesn't. you are showing me what MS said. not what you said. What is your opinion on "what is the real meaning of batch" ? techinically its everything you can do with the tools you have. The deciding factor on this definition is whether one can relax the "rules" that batch is only for this and that, and not others , and also stop assuming TS that posts here are ignorant from the start.

berserker
Posts: 95
Joined: 18 Dec 2013 00:51

Re: Conversation

#32 Post by berserker » 29 Dec 2013 20:24

I also do not want to carry this pointless discussion any further than you or the mods do. So this is what I intend to do. I will not post any other scripts until I know what the TS can or cannot do. Also, to my own discretion I will post other forms of solution AFTER TS has got significant suggestions for batch solution. I hope you are satisfied with this arrangement.

carlsomo
Posts: 91
Joined: 02 Oct 2012 17:21

Re: Conversation

#33 Post by carlsomo » 30 Dec 2013 01:55

to: berserker AKA PHONY

I have been sitting on the sidelines but now I have a suggestion for you.
Post some useful DOS batch code or go away and post elsewhere?
Or how about posting any code in any language you have written that
might be useful? I have not seen one contribution by you here so that
makes you a rookie who has no worth to this forum. OK hot shot!
What are you doing here? So what if other code is better for you?
We don't care, just go away and try to be useful where other people
may have some appreciation. You are not appreciated here. At least
not by the folks looking for good and useable batch solutions. You have
nothing useful to offer this forum by your comments so maybe you should
just go away? Perhaps you should find a PERL code site and show them
your prowess. As I see it you don't have much to offer on this forum
other than insulting people that are highly respected here and I suggest
this forum is not for your type. Post some useful code or relevant questions
that require a batch solution or else go away.

THEME: GO AWAY! I have wasted my time reading your drivel, dude.

Love, Carl

berserker
Posts: 95
Joined: 18 Dec 2013 00:51

Re: Conversation

#34 Post by berserker » 30 Dec 2013 02:14

carlsomo wrote:to: berserker AKA PHONY

I have been sitting on the sidelines but now I have a suggestion for you.
Post some useful DOS batch code or go away and post elsewhere?
Or how about posting any code in any language you have written that
might be useful? I have not seen one contribution by you here so that
makes you a rookie who has no worth to this forum. OK hot shot!
What are you doing here? So what if other code is better for you?
We don't care, just go away and try to be useful where other people
may have some appreciation. You are not appreciated here. At least
not by the folks looking for good and useable batch solutions. You have
nothing useful to offer this forum by your comments so maybe you should
just go away? Perhaps you should find a PERL code site and show them
your prowess. As I see it you don't have much to offer on this forum
other than insulting people that are highly respected here and I suggest
this forum is not for your type. Post some useful code or relevant questions
that require a batch solution or else go away.

THEME: GO AWAY! I have wasted my time reading your drivel, dude.

Love, Carl



to carlsomo: AKA NOTHING BETTER TO DO RANTER
all my useful codes are deleted dude!. you have been sitting on the sidelines, so , just be good and sit on the sidelines. By coming into this fray you are making it worse. I have already stopped. So, if you want to get on with it again i am more than willing to oblige.

for all you know, I even create a Java program to do TS's task. Not useful maybe, but I am just trying to solve TS's problem, AND NOT YOUR PROBLEM. My solutions are not for you or anyone who takes it to heart. IF all else matters, then its the TS who has the final say of the methods he wants to use.

carlsomo
Posts: 91
Joined: 02 Oct 2012 17:21

Re: Conversation

#35 Post by carlsomo » 30 Dec 2013 02:20

Sorry to hear your useful code has been deleted. Wow that sucks. Sorry to have judged you wrongly.
I am getting in to JAVA now.
Peace, dude
Carl

AiroNG
Posts: 46
Joined: 17 Nov 2013 15:00
Location: Germany

Re: Conversation

#36 Post by AiroNG » 30 Dec 2013 08:44

[...]if you are not happy, then just ignore my posts[...]

This falls in the category of "be careful what you wish for" because:

@everyone who has enough of this dude:
I just found a little nifty function on this board. It's in the "User Control Panel - Friends & Foes - Manage Foes"-Section.
Just pencil in the name of an undesired, mindless, garbage-spewing, attention-seeking troll and you won't have to deal with him any further. I did and it felt really good :)

On a sidenote, dear berserker/blyanadams:
I do believe that every person has the right to speak his or her mind, but if one does meet so much resistance doing it (and this is exactly what happens here right now) one should just shut up before drastic actions are being taken (such as being banned from this forum). Circumventing this ban by creating a second account is never EVER a good idea. It shows people your true intentions, which are infact causing disharmony, trolling and verbal littering.

edit:
I was looking for the exact spelling of his other accountname (blyanadams) and look what i found:

Code: Select all

brianmadams        25 Dec 2013 05:52
brianmadam         25 Dec 2013 05:39
brianadam       25 Dec 2013 02:00
brianiadams     25 Dec 2013 01:40
brainiiadams     25 Dec 2013 01:31
brainiadams     25 Dec 2013 00:55
braineeadams     24 Dec 2013 11:48
brainyadams     24 Dec 2013 11:31
Brainadams         24 Dec 2013 09:49
Blyanadams     20 Dec 2013 12:41
bryanadams     20 Dec 2013 10:15
berserker        18 Dec 2013 07:51

That much accounts just for one person? Go ahead and try to logically explain that.
So much for you NOT trolling here...

Squashman
Expert
Posts: 4465
Joined: 23 Dec 2011 13:59

Re: Conversation

#37 Post by Squashman » 30 Dec 2013 10:16

berserker wrote:What is your opinion on "what is the real meaning of batch" ? techinically its everything you can do with the tools you have. The deciding factor on this definition is whether one can relax the "rules" that batch is only for this and that, and not others , and also stop assuming TS that posts here are ignorant from the start.

You keep forgetting one descriptive word. "DOS" Batch. And I would think that anyone in the world who has been around since the days of DOS would agree that when someone says BATCH they mean .BAT and nothing else.

I was a Unix and Linux admin for two years of my life and if you don't believe me I have a script I wrote in BASH that was published to Novell's website and I am listed as the Author. Never did I refer to a BASH script as a batch script. Not once in my life. And I don't recall any of my colleagues referencing a BASH or any other Unix SHELL script as BATCH. And if I found a script that was written in Perl I referred to it as a Perl script.

So according to your definition I can refer to all my JCL scripts as batch script and post them here and I should be able to get help from anyone on this forum without telling them that I am trying to write a JCL script.

berserker
Posts: 95
Joined: 18 Dec 2013 00:51

Re: Conversation

#38 Post by berserker » 30 Dec 2013 11:09

Squashman wrote:You keep forgetting one descriptive word. "DOS" Batch. And I would think that anyone in the world who has been around since the days of DOS would agree that when someone says BATCH they mean .BAT and nothing else.


yes, and why do you think i am referring to anything else? That's why i ask, what exactly is a "batch" script. I ask you, you put a jscript or a cscript code inside your batch file. What is it called then?

similarly, someone has to run a java class and its coded inside a batch file to be run at scheduler. What is that file called then? DOS batch? Java batch? Cscript batch?

berserker
Posts: 95
Joined: 18 Dec 2013 00:51

Re: Conversation

#39 Post by berserker » 30 Dec 2013 11:17

AiroNG wrote:@everyone who has enough of this dude:
I just found a little nifty function on this board. It's in the "User Control Panel - Friends & Foes - Manage Foes"-Section.
Just pencil in the name of an undesired, mindless, garbage-spewing, attention-seeking troll and you won't have to deal with him any further. I did and it felt really good :)

so why are you replying to my post? Just ignore me. Its just that simple.

AiroNG wrote:On a sidenote, dear berserker/blyanadams:
I do believe that every person has the right to speak his or her mind, but if one does meet so much resistance doing it (and this is exactly what happens here right now) one should just shut up before drastic actions are being taken (such as being banned from this forum). Circumventing this ban by creating a second account is never EVER a good idea. It shows people your true intentions, which are infact causing disharmony, trolling and verbal littering.

oh really? Have you ever taken a look at my posts and see if I am talking rubbish?

AiroNG wrote:edit:
I was looking for the exact spelling of his other accountname (blyanadams) and look what i found:

Code: Select all

brianmadams        25 Dec 2013 05:52
brianmadam         25 Dec 2013 05:39
brianadam       25 Dec 2013 02:00
brianiadams     25 Dec 2013 01:40
brainiiadams     25 Dec 2013 01:31
brainiadams     25 Dec 2013 00:55
braineeadams     24 Dec 2013 11:48
brainyadams     24 Dec 2013 11:31
Brainadams         24 Dec 2013 09:49
Blyanadams     20 Dec 2013 12:41
bryanadams     20 Dec 2013 10:15
berserker        18 Dec 2013 07:51

That much accounts just for one person? Go ahead and try to logically explain that.
So much for you NOT trolling here...

that's because the mods keep banning me for trivial reasons. in what capacity is anyone to judge anything? You create a forum, but never state the rules in black and white. And you expect to police it ?

penpen
Expert
Posts: 1991
Joined: 23 Jun 2013 06:15
Location: Germany

Re: Conversation

#40 Post by penpen » 30 Dec 2013 11:43

berserker wrote:If you do have a need to program at work, although I don't know what's your profession. why is that a concern of installing the tools necessary for the job?
I assume that all "bosses" check themselfes (or have an adviser who may check/know it) what tasks are possible with the current system.
After that the employee is asked to solve this task.
And there are no great assumptions, it only assums that:
- "bosses" do their jobs. (Should be the default.)
- the employee is not the adviser of the boss. (As there are more employees than bosses/advisers this can be seen as the default case.)
- Perl is not the default tool for most companies. (No big assumption, just watch the market share of Perl (1.9% - 2.264%).)

This scenario should target the majority of employees, so the "default" employee becoming a TS here is in this situation:
- has a task, that probably could be solved with his/her current system
- has a problem he needs help
- wants a hint/solution that is possible on his system
- excepts that, if the problem is (against all exceptions) unsolveable with his/her system, a solution changes his/her system as few as possible,
because she/he has to convince his/her "boss" to change the system.

berserker wrote:another scenario, a company may already be running some web servers hosting PHP for example. why not leverage on the tools that are already there? this is just an example.
In such a case, i agree with you, and indeed this targets the most users (market share of server sided programming languages: PHP 81.1%), so you can assume this as the default case.

Code: Select all

market share sources:
http://windowsdeveloper.de/news/Nicht-Objective-C-sondern-C-Sharp-ist-die-Programmiersprache-des-Jahres-2012
http://phpmagazin.de/news/PHP-Marktanteil-auf-811-Prozent-geklettert-167705

berserker wrote:Like I said, if there is a legitimate business reason for doing some things, then evaluate the cost and benefits of using such tools in terms of maintainabiility + cost of development ( think LOC ) + others and get approval to use them.
And i agreed and served the programming business reasons (as i've learned them) (see: "Minimal costs - maximum benefits" part).

berserker wrote:But then again, if your environment or boss dictate only batch you can use, then so be it. Does it hurt you in any way that I post other types of solution that doesn't even affect you?
No, and i can't remember having posted anything like this.

berserker wrote:
penpen wrote:In addition there are similar tools to do the same: JScript, VBScript, server sided XML/XSLT/JavaScript.
No need to download anything which, i think, most of the users would prefer.

again this is based on assumption and man made rules.
These are not man made rules, it bases on the standard behaviour of most people, when choosing between:
(1) download nothing
(2) download one file
(3) download a complete suite (with thousands of files)
(Especially when you take maintainability and get approval to use them to account, which the most people won't do.)

berserker wrote:Would it be no problem for you if Perl or Python or PHP comes bundled into a Window installation by default? or with an option for you to install?
In that case it would be indeed no problem for me, to use them where i am actually using VBScript/JScript.

berserker wrote:Installation is never a problem. Its the rules people make that is the problem.
The (employee, boss) example should demonstrate, that the rules the boss makes may cause the employees problem.
But the user who became a TS in this forum cannot change any of them,
so installation (and sometimes even downloading single tools) is in such a case a problem for the employee.
And there are much more of those pairs: (parents, youths), (school, students), ...
Indeed the most users, have no admin rights on the system, they are using,
if you are counting per pc and not per person.
So it is not an unfair assumption that installation of software should be avoided.

berserker wrote:sed is stream editor. Its not just a simple string replacement tool and wget is a feature rich web crawler. why reinvent the wheel and waste time to code again? Just download and use and make sure download from trusted source. This is a universal issue to consider when downloading stuff (not just what you think about downloading portable perl)
I think for any solution i do not need the full capabilities of sed or wget.
It takes me just one or two minutes to imitate the needed single behaviour,
as the needed functionality is included in most (here) discussed (script) languages.
So i think there is only a small difference for me.
It is especially faster for someone needing help, as she/he then just has to copy/paste my script, and don't need to download anything extra.

berserker wrote:
penpen wrote:Finally my opinion about that all:
On a batch forum, a solutions may not bound on any specific language:
i have no problem in using perl, c++ assembler, or even whitespace,
or even more strange programming languages.

actually, I am only answering the TS, i don't remember I answer you. So there's no problem whether you want to use what tools. I am not interested really
Where have you seen a question from me to you in my above post? (rhetorical)
Not all what i've written is targeting (exclusively) to you.
It is targeted to others and should be understood as: Any source code could be part of a good solution, IF there is no simpler option.

berserker wrote:nowadays minimal costs can equate to minimal development time. pure batch?
Yes.

berserker wrote:to do FTP?
Yes: use ftp.exe (pure batch): viewtopic.php?p=28817#p28817

berserker wrote:do send email?
create a WSH VBScript and call it using a cscript.exe (pure batch, although this batch is calling a VBScript); VBScript is only scetched here:

Code: Select all

' VBScript: ok it's without exception handling,
' and boud to a specific configuration,
' but it is problem specific solution.

Dim password, eMail

Set password = "obscure"
Set eMail = CreateObject ("CDO.Message")
Set configuration = eMail.Configuration

eMail.From = "account@hoster.net"
eMail.To = "anotherAccount@anotherHoster.net"
eMail.Subject = "\"Subject text.\""
eMail.TextBody = "greetings and goodbye."
eMail.AddAttachment "P:\ath\file.ext"

eMail.Configuration.Fields ("http://schemas.microsoft.com/cdo/configuration/smtpserver") = "smtp.somewh.ere"
eMail.Configuration.Fields ("http://schemas.microsoft.com/cdo/configuration/smtpserverport") = 123
eMail.Configuration.Fields ("http://schemas.microsoft.com/cdo/configuration/sendusing") = 2
eMail.Configuration.Fields ("http://schemas.microsoft.com/cdo/configuration/smtpauthenticate") = 1
eMail.Configuration.Fields ("http://schemas.microsoft.com/cdo/configuration/smtpusessl") = true
eMail.Configuration.Fields ("http://schemas.microsoft.com/cdo/configuration/sendusername") = eMail.From
eMail.Configuration.Fields ("http://schemas.microsoft.com/cdo/configuration/sendpassword") = password
eMail.Configuration.Fields.Update

eMail.Send

berserker wrote:
penpen wrote:If he has access and doesn't inform us, it is not our task to figure that out.

your TS is the customer. If this forum has no customer, it will be dead. Providing services for customers is common sense.
I see myself as a customer of this forum, too.
And if i post an answer to a thread starter, i provide the service he searches for:
But she/he has to tell me for what he is asking for; needfull non standard tools he has access to, are part of such a description.

berserker wrote:you are showing me what MS said. not what you said. What is your opinion on "what is the real meaning of batch" ?
My opinion is: Pure/native batch is defined just the same as the author of batch (== Microsoft) has defined it.
In addition the author has the right to redefine this definition whenever he wants to.
So it is a matter of anyones opinion which definition of pure batch he is using (DOS 6.22, Win95, ..., WinXP, ...),
but all these definitions author is MS.

berserker wrote:techinically its everything you can do with the tools you have. The deciding factor on this definition is whether one can relax the "rules" that batch is only for this and that, and not others
I'm no enemy of relaxing the "rules": I do it myself sometimes, too(creating Powershell, C#, VB.NET, JScript.NET, C++, ... sources or discuss them).
But i'm also no friend of relaxing the "rules": If it is possible and not unreasonable difficult to solve a task without relaxing the rules, then i won't.

berserker wrote:... and also stop assuming TS that posts here are ignorant from the start.
I wonder, why you believe that i may assume TS that posts here are ignorant from the start.
Maybe because my english is broken, as i am no english native speaker.
If someone should believe i offended him, then he should post and say this,
so i could correct my wrong english spelling.


penpen

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