I have a V.M. phone system operating off DOS for like the last 12 or so years. No HD failures yet but its only a matter of time before something goes south. I'm living on borrowed time. When it fails, I lose all the custom made VM prompts, VM mail boxes etc that are stored on the HD on this vintage computer. It will cost upwards of $1500 in phone rep time to rebuild the VM prompts - and what's more, the original installation discs are corrupt. Interestingly enough, the VM operating system boots off the 3.5" floppy boot disc, and then goes to the HD for the voice prompts, storage of VM, etc.
1st question: What is a good way to find out what DOS version I now have, and is there a good 3.5 floppy DOS utility that I can get whatever information I may need about the hardwaresoftwarre that is now running this program (and as I ask later, is this even necessary)?
2nd question: The V.M interface to the phone system has a card that insets into one of the slots on the MB. AS of this posting, I haven't opened up the case to see what kind of slot it is using, but when I do, will this tell me whether or not I will be compelled to go on ebay and hunt up vintage MB that will meet my criteria? I plan on taking some pics of the MB, etc and posting that info as this is some needed info to allow meaningful responses to be made.
3rd Question: Given this to be a vintage computer (me thinking its a 486 but could be next hight cpu - again - can the DOS utility help me out), if there a way this 15 year old computer would have an expansion slot compatible with a MB built say, within the last 5 years. Also, I would hate to have to set up a new rig on a vintage computer that has a zillion miles on it and be back in the same boat.
I plan on posting more information once I open that thing up. Just have some "in the meanwhile" questions about what is my best approach to do something about my situation. Ideally, I would come up with a rig, clone the HD date, plug the card in the new rig, and see if I can get the VM to work on the new rig, leaving me the option of hooking back up the old rig if the new rig doesn't work (or if I am running out of time, as this has to be done on a weekend so the office can have a functional VM system on Monday).
I have built many computers from scratch in the last 10 years so I am fairly savvy on a lot of this stuff. And I harken back to the early days of DOS - in 1980, my office had the 1st computer-word processor in the building, operating not on MS-DOS but C/PM. But alas, my DOS days are well behind me, as are most of the DOS commands I eventually came to know quite well (until WIN 3.1 entered the scene - no comment).
I now have this very odd yearning to revisit - experience once against, the magic of MS-DOS - hence, my visit and post to this forum. DOS still has a place in my heart. The fact that this VM system, which is a fairly complicated program, has withstood almost 15 years of completely glitch free performance is a testament to the purity and reliability of the DOS platform. Can't say that about any version of Windows.
Any reply, suggestions, questons or comments would be appreciated.
Thanks
jaimslaw
Backing up Dos HD
Moderator: DosItHelp
Re: Backing up Dos HD
If the card uses a PCI interface then it will or should work in any modern PC with a PCI slot.
If it is ISA then you are limited to old PCs, or perhaps a PCI to ISA interface exists for hardware like this.
CPU speed could be a factor if the MSDOS programs use pascal where the timing loop issue struck a snag with fast CPUs (from memory the issue appeared around 300 MHz+ era CPUS)
That generates a runtime 200 error. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runtime_error_200
I hope you have a backup of the hard drive, and the floppy disk.
Plug the HDD into an IDE interface dock or external USB case, assuming it is IDE, and do a clone of the drive.
There are old programs like PCconfig which interrogate the hardware to produce a list of CPU/Video/RAM etc specs.
I have several on shareware CDROM still if you need a copy and can't find one.
If it is ISA then you are limited to old PCs, or perhaps a PCI to ISA interface exists for hardware like this.
CPU speed could be a factor if the MSDOS programs use pascal where the timing loop issue struck a snag with fast CPUs (from memory the issue appeared around 300 MHz+ era CPUS)
That generates a runtime 200 error. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runtime_error_200
I hope you have a backup of the hard drive, and the floppy disk.
Plug the HDD into an IDE interface dock or external USB case, assuming it is IDE, and do a clone of the drive.
There are old programs like PCconfig which interrogate the hardware to produce a list of CPU/Video/RAM etc specs.
I have several on shareware CDROM still if you need a copy and can't find one.
Re: Backing up Dos HD
Hi foxidrive:
Opened the case up and found a few surprises: (i) as susepcted, two ISA slots are required/used for the two VM phone cards. (ii) was surprised that although the instruction manual refers to hardware req't of 386SX, I see it is runnning on a Pentium II/250 W power supply. The MB has 2 USB 1 ports. Small form factor AT board. IDE hard drive.
Thanks for the PCConfig suggestion, which I will download off of BootCamp and get some more information.
ISA to PCI conversion options (adapators) are prohibitively costly, and can be issue prone.
I guess my first order of priority is to get that HD backed up. If the existing HD were to crash (not sure of order of probable failures, ie., MB, or Phone Cards, or PS or even memory), I would want to install a clobed HD. Not really sure how this is done in DOS. Would there not be a difference between copying all the files onto a comparable size HD and cloning the new HD? Or is cloning and backing up the same when dealing with a DOS drive. I know the system boots up from the floppy, so just a backup should suffice?
My plan would be to connect up another HD on the ribbion. set jumpers to make it a slave (do I have to configure the existing HD jumpers as a master or will it read it as such by default?). Then go from there (assign it a drive maybe and do some copy command. I will research this copying process, which seems to be the easiest way. Still will be a little nervous screwing around with the HD that contains all the VM data for 5 offices.
If I am able to get the HD copied via DOS, using PCconfig along the way, I might experiement with booting up the VM system with just the new HD attached and see if the VM system works. If it does, I move on to replicating the MB setup via by some dual ISA board on ebay. Maybe get another PS, etc and maybe come up with a backup if the MB goes south on me.
Thanks for your input - appreicate the help.
-jaimslaw
Opened the case up and found a few surprises: (i) as susepcted, two ISA slots are required/used for the two VM phone cards. (ii) was surprised that although the instruction manual refers to hardware req't of 386SX, I see it is runnning on a Pentium II/250 W power supply. The MB has 2 USB 1 ports. Small form factor AT board. IDE hard drive.
Thanks for the PCConfig suggestion, which I will download off of BootCamp and get some more information.
ISA to PCI conversion options (adapators) are prohibitively costly, and can be issue prone.
I guess my first order of priority is to get that HD backed up. If the existing HD were to crash (not sure of order of probable failures, ie., MB, or Phone Cards, or PS or even memory), I would want to install a clobed HD. Not really sure how this is done in DOS. Would there not be a difference between copying all the files onto a comparable size HD and cloning the new HD? Or is cloning and backing up the same when dealing with a DOS drive. I know the system boots up from the floppy, so just a backup should suffice?
My plan would be to connect up another HD on the ribbion. set jumpers to make it a slave (do I have to configure the existing HD jumpers as a master or will it read it as such by default?). Then go from there (assign it a drive maybe and do some copy command. I will research this copying process, which seems to be the easiest way. Still will be a little nervous screwing around with the HD that contains all the VM data for 5 offices.
If I am able to get the HD copied via DOS, using PCconfig along the way, I might experiement with booting up the VM system with just the new HD attached and see if the VM system works. If it does, I move on to replicating the MB setup via by some dual ISA board on ebay. Maybe get another PS, etc and maybe come up with a backup if the MB goes south on me.
Thanks for your input - appreicate the help.
-jaimslaw
Re: Backing up Dos HD
The floppy disk may be purely a boot disk, or it might also load drivers and as such it would be of paramount importance to copy it too.
Copying the HDD boot sector and disk format may be needed, or a simple diskcopy command might work if it is an MSDOS system (CF a CPM system or something else exotic).
If there is copy protection in the form of storing something at a particular disk location then a clone of the HDD would be needed.
Try it and see.
You can connect a 2nd drive and make it slave, assuming the primary is set to Master, but it could also be using chip select to determine the drives.
Some IDE drives have a 'single' jumper setting.
An option is to get an IDE USB caddy device and backup from the primary HDD to the USB drive.
You may need to boot up an older Linux live operating system and copy using that. Add a cdrom for that - that era may have trouble booting from USB.
Make an extra clone image backup of the spare drive using a Windows GUI tool once it's working, and store yet another copy offsite. Remember to duplicate the floppy and test that too.
Copying the HDD boot sector and disk format may be needed, or a simple diskcopy command might work if it is an MSDOS system (CF a CPM system or something else exotic).
If there is copy protection in the form of storing something at a particular disk location then a clone of the HDD would be needed.
Try it and see.
You can connect a 2nd drive and make it slave, assuming the primary is set to Master, but it could also be using chip select to determine the drives.
Some IDE drives have a 'single' jumper setting.
An option is to get an IDE USB caddy device and backup from the primary HDD to the USB drive.
You may need to boot up an older Linux live operating system and copy using that. Add a cdrom for that - that era may have trouble booting from USB.
Make an extra clone image backup of the spare drive using a Windows GUI tool once it's working, and store yet another copy offsite. Remember to duplicate the floppy and test that too.
Re: Backing up Dos HD
My bad: I meant to state that the Floppy is the operaiting system - not just a boot disc as rightfully does not infer it has the VM operating system on it (the VM manual describes the benefits of having its complete operating system on the floppy). Per your heads up abut this, I will be sure to prioritize my backup objectives and start with backing up that floppy before doing anything else. Now that I think of it, an earlier system floppy got infected and was tossed, leaving only this one floppy.
As far as what HDD to get for the backup, should I not be concerned about the size of the backup HDD per limitations of the current DOS that the VM utilizes? I will be getting that PCconfig soon to get more info on size of existing HD and versioln of DOS. Or do I just partition a larger drive, give it an appropriate size and stick the back up on that smaller sized partition?
For the copy process, I am thinking of just hooking the existing HDD up to a windows computer via SATA, using an IDE to SATA adaptor. Then add the new BK HDD to that same windows computer via another SATA. I assume I wouldn't need to bother with Master Slave configuratrions, as Windows should see all three drives (or will an older HDD with DOS on it not be happy with a IDE to Sata adaptor and/or will Windows XP have any problem seeing that older HDD?.
Another question I have is, does the VM HDD have a boot sector as a default configuration when it was originally set up with DOS - that is, does DOS do that automaticallyt when one installs DOS on a newly formatted HDD?). If the VM HDD does have a DOS boot sector, will Windows XP be confused if it does see two HDD drives with boot sectors? Or will windows think: its just a DOS boot sector - no need to be concerned with that HDD being a boot drive?
I guess the reason I want to take the VM HDD out and do the copying on another computer is that I just don't want to be messing around with the existing computer for fear something will happen when I am doring the copying, etc. Sort of let sleeping dogs lie mentality. As it is, I feel like having a witch doctor standing over me chanting just for the very simple taskl of removing the HDD. In doing a lot of rebuilds/component swaps over the years, I have had my fair share of inexplicable gremlin activity (transient power supply fluctuation related?) In any event, I just would feel more comfortable with manipulating the HDD apart from the existing VM computer. That thing has been running 24 hours now for about 13 years. My thinking - it might be a little cranky in its old age. I would be.
Thanks again for your input.
As far as what HDD to get for the backup, should I not be concerned about the size of the backup HDD per limitations of the current DOS that the VM utilizes? I will be getting that PCconfig soon to get more info on size of existing HD and versioln of DOS. Or do I just partition a larger drive, give it an appropriate size and stick the back up on that smaller sized partition?
For the copy process, I am thinking of just hooking the existing HDD up to a windows computer via SATA, using an IDE to SATA adaptor. Then add the new BK HDD to that same windows computer via another SATA. I assume I wouldn't need to bother with Master Slave configuratrions, as Windows should see all three drives (or will an older HDD with DOS on it not be happy with a IDE to Sata adaptor and/or will Windows XP have any problem seeing that older HDD?.
Another question I have is, does the VM HDD have a boot sector as a default configuration when it was originally set up with DOS - that is, does DOS do that automaticallyt when one installs DOS on a newly formatted HDD?). If the VM HDD does have a DOS boot sector, will Windows XP be confused if it does see two HDD drives with boot sectors? Or will windows think: its just a DOS boot sector - no need to be concerned with that HDD being a boot drive?
I guess the reason I want to take the VM HDD out and do the copying on another computer is that I just don't want to be messing around with the existing computer for fear something will happen when I am doring the copying, etc. Sort of let sleeping dogs lie mentality. As it is, I feel like having a witch doctor standing over me chanting just for the very simple taskl of removing the HDD. In doing a lot of rebuilds/component swaps over the years, I have had my fair share of inexplicable gremlin activity (transient power supply fluctuation related?) In any event, I just would feel more comfortable with manipulating the HDD apart from the existing VM computer. That thing has been running 24 hours now for about 13 years. My thinking - it might be a little cranky in its old age. I would be.
Thanks again for your input.
Re: Backing up Dos HD
jaimslaw wrote:My bad: I meant to state that the Floppy is the operaiting system - not just a boot disc as rightfully does not infer it has the VM operating system on it (the VM manual describes the benefits of having its complete operating system on the floppy). Per your heads up abut this, I will be sure to prioritize my backup objectives and start with backing up that floppy before doing anything else. Now that I think of it, an earlier system floppy got infected and was tossed, leaving only this one floppy.
Yikes.
As far as what HDD to get for the backup, should I not be concerned about the size of the backup HDD per limitations of the current DOS that the VM utilizes? I will be getting that PCconfig soon to get more info on size of existing HD and versioln of DOS. Or do I just partition a larger drive, give it an appropriate size and stick the back up on that smaller sized partition?
The PC bios may well have a HDD size limitation - there were many size restrictions over the years. Hence getting a similar size or one that has jumpers to limit the size (which catered for the BIOS limitations at the time) could be the best way to go. Freecycle might be a place to ask for a similar one/three.
If the HDD is recognised in the BIOS and the size is correct then the drive will work. If the OS is msdos then the partition size can't be above 2 GB so you can partition a larger drive.
For the copy process, I am thinking of just hooking the existing HDD up to a windows computer via SATA, using an IDE to SATA adaptor.
Good plan. Or get a USB HDD dock that supports IDE, or a sata/ide_to_usb cable. You might find them still at dx.com
Another question I have is, does the VM HDD have a boot sector as a default configuration when it was originally set up with DOS - that is, does DOS do that automaticallyt when one installs DOS on a newly formatted HDD?). If the VM HDD does have a DOS boot sector, will Windows XP be confused if it does see two HDD drives with boot sectors? Or will windows think: its just a DOS boot sector - no need to be concerned with that HDD being a boot drive?
Windows won't care. You can have many combinations of partitions/formats/boot sectors and the BIOS determines which one boots and the order.
I guess the reason I want to take the VM HDD out and do the copying on another computer is that I just don't want to be messing around with the existing computer for fear something will happen when I am doring the copying, etc. Sort of let sleeping dogs lie mentality. As it is, I feel like having a witch doctor standing over me chanting just for the very simple taskl of removing the HDD. In doing a lot of rebuilds/component swaps over the years, I have had my fair share of inexplicable gremlin activity (transient power supply fluctuation related?) In any event, I just would feel more comfortable with manipulating the HDD apart from the existing VM computer. That thing has been running 24 hours now for about 13 years. My thinking - it might be a little cranky in its old age. I would be.
That's fair too.
Good luck with it.